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BARBARA LAWS
 
The following interview was conducted on September 6, 2016, by Amanda Barbee, a graduate student in the Department of Art Education at Virginia Commonwealth University and reviewed and edited by Barbara Laws. This interview is part of the Virginia Art Education Association Distinguished Fellows Legends and Legacies Project, a project intended to preserve the histories of prominent Virginia art educators for posterity.
 
Barbara Laws worked in the Norfolk Public Schools for 42 years, with 18 years of teaching art at the elementary level and experiences at the middle and high school levels, until her retirement. During that time, she also served for 8 years as an assistant principal and as the district art coordinator for 15 years. She has served in many roles in VAEA, including President and also has played major roles in NAEA, including Southeastern Region Vice President and Supervision and Administration Division Director. She is a VAEA and NAEA Distinguished Fellow.
 
Amanda Barbee (AB): Please tell me about your life and experiences in art education.
 
Barbara Laws (BL): I think, like most of us who have long careers, I’ve had many experiences and over the years have evolved - or at least I hope I have.
 
I have a deep belief that I became more clearly aware of at about year 16 of teaching elementary art while I served on the National Board for Professional Teaching Standards (NBPTS) -  one of the most profound professional development experiences of my life - and worked  on my doctorate.  At the same time, I was teaching art full time at two elementary schools and often experienced professional development delivered as if I were the age of my students. I remember standing in the middle of a school parking lot one afternoon after a “50 ways to use a crayon” workshop wondering at the cognitive dissonance of it all.  I had these parallel lives at the same time and that moment truly made a difference in the way I approached - and continue to approach - how we as art educators improve our practice and better serve our students.
 
Thoughout my NBPTS experience, including as the liaison to the Early Adolescent-Young Adulthood Standards Committee, I learned a lot through many deep conversations about students, teaching practices and content, and professional development with leading educators. I realized that that engagement was at the heart of effective professional development for teachers and the path to quality arts education experiences for students - a sort of a Professional Learning Community, even before those practices were widely known.
 
Fast forward a few years to the time I became the district art administrator.  We had some direction changing to do. The department had many strong art teachers but the art education piece of it was behind the times, and we needed to move forward with current effective practice - creating meaning, teaching meaning with art, art-making skills and techniques taught in context, and supporting choice for students - all of those kinds of things. While defining curriculum is important, to make change, ultimately it’s about relationships and valuing the expertise of experienced teachers, all of whom need opportunities to be deeply engaged in these conversations about what quality art education looks like.
 
Our curriculum committee was K-12 and in the beginning, we paired with another district plus we had to involve the rest of NPS art teachers in the process. Unwieldy? My answer to whether there are too many cooks or the proper number of cooks is however many you can have an engaging conversation with. It depends on whether you have enough like-minded people, who can lead change and get something done. When I worked with the curriculum committee, we had a lot of bird walking - “Look, something shiny!” our discussion would all jump around - hyperlink if you will. But their passion for what they do, and their conversations always had some relationship to moving forward in terms of how we do curriculum and how we make better instruction for kids. Does that make sense?
 
AB: Absolutely, that makes total sense. Thank you for that perspective. I appreciate it so much. Especially that last part. Occasionally when we are working together with like-minded individuals, sometimes the long version gets so very much in the way of the short side steps. The meandering sometimes brings some really good, meaningful, purposeful interaction.
 
BL: That’s a great way to put it. And a lot of ways that is how it happens. We all knew each other pretty well by that point through a lot of conversations, because we met every summer for a day or two, in order to look at where we were, in terms of our curriculum and what we needed to do in terms of raising the level of instruction. We got a lot of things done but with a humanistic sense of humor.
 
AB: I know the five basic questions that I asked you are simple, but how would you like to cover those? So the first question asked what led you to Art Education? When you look back, what initially brought you to this career? What has shifted over time? What has helped you thrive and grow?
 
BL: Well, it is hugely different. I have backed into a lot of things in my life, and I backed into art education. I went to the University of North Carolina at Greensboro. I was going to major in interior design. My father suggested that I might do well to have a backup plan. I had a really bad experience in a UNCG art class so I switched to history. Then my father died my sophomore year, and I moved to Virginia and enrolled in Old Dominion University. Art was my first love so I switched back. It was during the late sixties and early seventies when much of college art involved kind of doing your own thing - if it feels good, do it - and not a classic academic art background. Also, art education majors at that time, and I think to some degree now, due to course requirements, end up taking only basic level art courses in various two- and three-D media. I managed to graduate but art teaching positions were rare so I ended up in sales but didn’t like it. I can sell art education - as in advocacy - because you’re not asking people - sometimes those who can’t afford it - to pay for it.
 
 Ultimately I applied to teach art, and I ended up teaching my first 5 years in Norfolk Public Schools at a Title 1 camp in Chesapeake on the intercoastal waterway. Every Monday was like the first day of school. Each week we had a new set of kids who came to school from Norfolk to our camp on the water. It was really quite a crazy situation for lots of reasons. I taught art under the physical education department. Then I taught for 18 years at multiple schools. I guess what I most remember was realizing in the beginning that I wasn’t prepared to do what I needed to do and I didn’t have anyone to mentor me. I think that is a common experience, particularly teaching art in a lot of elementary schools. Many of us are onesies.
 
That is another philosophical underpinning of mine. I think as a teacher you need to be a constant learner. I used to look for that when I was interviewing art teachers. You have to always be a sponge because things change. I was in Norfolk Public Schools for 42 years and, of course, it was not the same when I retired (except for the need to advocate always all the time). It’s very important to be a learner as well as a teacher.
 
I also think that it’s very important to try new things so when you are experiencing learning difficulties, you remember that your feeings about them are similar to what the students you are teaching are experiencing. It reminds you and it keeps you more aware and more tuned in. And another thing is a shift in levels and what is important to you. I went into the classroom and thought it was very important to be there and see the impact I was making on the kids. But when you shift from the classroom to administration, or to larger roles in VAEA or other places, then you can see the opportunity to educate others and teach others and make a different broader kind of impact. I guess that’s another part of the question to answer. I was an assistant principal for eight years, and I loved it for the experience itself but what I learned and the relationships I built served me well when I moved to the art coordinator position. I have a mixed bag of experiences.
 
AB: I guess that is a very nice jumping off point for you into the other realm of education all together?
 
BL: I have done an orientation for the Old Dominion Humanities Program because my master’s degree is in the humanities. One of the points that I make for them is that experiences that this program provided are valuable although you, at first glance, think it might not translate directly to your current life. You might not think that a Master’s in Medieval Culture would prepare you for a doctorate in policy studies but it actually does! Think about all of the transferable skills - writing, synthesis, analysis, research, and on and on. And actually being on an art cart for all of those years (because I was mostly) prepared me to do the set-up and bug-out that you have to do during art shows and exhibitions and to backwards plan, strategize, organize, and the like. I think I can credit my ability to plan to a lot of these experiences. I just think things are connected more than we might think.
 
AB: Art on a cart! Not that I would wish that on any teacher but the skill set that you require from that experience I would like to give to everyone. Do you know what I mean?
 
BL: I would too. I had a place in one of my schools where I could lean over into the metal cart, lift my feet, and ride it down the ramp. But I’m happy that most art teachers in Norfolk have dedicated rooms and all of the new school construction included dedicated art spaces in the planning.
 
AB: Make the best of the day!
 
BL: Absolutely!
 
AB: You’ve directly tied into my next question quite well. Specifically for you, you said that you were an Assistant Principal. Would you say that was one of your milestones? Or did it lead into another part of your career. What would you consider your milestones?
 
BL: I don’t think of myself as having milestones. I think of them as steppingstones because they are all different experiences. You have seen my resume—it goes in 15 different directions. I was fortunate to have mentors. I am fortunate to have had lots of interesting opportunities, including being an assistant principal. They all fit together. I did not have a lot of opportunities within the art department in the beginning but then I had opportunities with the (Virginia and National) Art Education Associations. That fed into my opportunities with the Norfolk Public Schools which fed into what I was able to do outside.  So it was kind of backwards and forwards.
 
Some of my steppingstones go back to getting my advanced degrees, being a part of our art education associations, being VAEA president of the Virginia Art Education Association, and being part of the NAEA leadership. Also, being on National Board of Professional Teaching Standards (NBPTS) was one of the most incredible experiences of my professional life. And then I got to finish my career doing what I really wanted to do—coordinating art at the district level.

AB: What advice would you give future teachers?
 
BL: You have to be interested in things other than school. What we do is hard; teaching is really hard. I think of it as a ministry. I work towards being a servant leader, not an autocratic type of leader. I saw being an arts administrator as a service and as a support for the schools, teachers, and students.
 
In order to be a really good art educator you have to be an constant learner, and have to know things outside of art so that you can connect your language with administrators’ and decisionmakers’. You really need to read broadly and you have to connect with your profession. The biggest thing you can do is pick other people’s brains and make that a habit. You know, that is really critical because the more that you know, the more you will know for your students, and the more you will feed yourself in the long run.
 
AB: That’s actually one of my favorite things for advocating within NAEA. It is simply advocating so that our preservice members go and do it now. I was in the classroom for several years and I was placed in a position to be part of the (NAEA) Pre-service Division and attend NAEA again. Talk about bringing life back to something.
 
BL: I really wouldn’t have had the professional opportunities that I did if it weren’t for VAEA and NAEA. I think the first time that I attended an NAEA conference was in 1980 in Atlanta. I have missed only one convention since then. It was so good for me to sit down next to someone at the Elementary Division breakfast and have a conversation. There were not many elementary folks there at that time. The convention was much, much smaller then. To have a perspective of someone from the other side of the United States and have that conversation about what it was like in their school and what their situation was, to put it mildly, enlightening. I had not had many of those types of conversations. You need them because you find there are a lot of things that you really have in common, the struggles that you have, and the way you connect for support. Social media can do a lot of that now in extremis, but we did not have that opportunity then. You also see the possibilities because they do things differently. I am one who sees that we are all in this together and that our brains can all work better together. That’s back to what we were talking about earlier about how many people are too many. Thinking in administrator terms - you can’t have too many if you can herd them in a direction. But it’s best if you herd them loosely so they can use their own talents and pursue their own passions, even though that’s a challenge.
 
AB: This feels like a trick question: I have never gotten anywhere near the same answer. It must be why it’s asked to you so often. The question always offered very good responses. It’s one that I would like to have. Will you answer it based on you own context? It is a simple question but it can be the things that we think about as we grow as professionals, in addition to the nitty-gritty of the everyday.
 
BL: You also grow in the context of art education as you constantly think about what you do, why you do it, and how you do it, because you have to be an advocate for art education all the time. The other advice is that when you go into a school, make friends with the secretary, the custodian, and the cafeteria manager. Then the principal. And the school counselor, especially if you are in high school. Again it’s all about relationships.
 
Another bit of advice is always make a deposit before you make a withdrawal, and that pertains to everyone. That kid with the gleam in his eye, if you have an opportunity to make a deposit by contacting his family with a compliment before you have make a withdrawal, then you are more likely to get support. Actually, the same could be said for all of your colleagues in a school too. If you have good relationships with all of those folks, then your life is smoother and it’s easier to get support for your program.
 
AB: I would add the Media Center Specialists. I am currently trying to romance both of them at both of my schools.
 
BL: Yes, I would add them to my list.
 
AB: I am working on getting comfy-cozy before I ask her to show artwork other than prints and posters. I’m really excited; my class was all huddled around my computer looking at this really great website put together by the Museum of Modern Art (MOMA) for Matisse’s paper cut-outs.
 
BL: And - all of the carpenters were my best friends when I was the art administrator. The carpenters were my buddies. They were the ones who carted all of my exhibition panels around. So I always sent them thank-you notes. I also sent a thank-you note to an electrician who came out to fix something in my office. He drove over to tell me that no one had ever thanked him before that. Can you imagine? Isn’t that sad?
 
AB: Absolutely. I mean, we get our thank you’s in some way, shape or form, and that sustains us. I cannot imagine not having that.
 
BL: They are somewhat invisible but keep all of our schools running.
 
AB: You actually just answered what sustains you as well, which was a portion of my next question.
 
BL: Actually I have quite a bit more to add to this. I think part of what sustains us, and you can see it through my history, are the ways in which we contribute to make a sustained impact. For me that would include the Leader Academy, working on the national art education standards, working on policy, and working on the National Board for Professional Teaching Standards.
 
AB: Have you had anything to do with the new NBPTS iteration?  I am coming up for renewal now so I noticed it looked quite different.
 
BL: Oh, well, this was a while back. There’re lots of changes (in the new iteration) from when we started. I haven’t even looked at it closely recently. Some of that kind of stresses me and because I cannot make a difference, I am moving on. I did what I could to start. I spent 7 years doing that.
 
AB: That was transformative, so thank you. It was transformative in my classroom.
 
BL: Well, good, good. I hear that, and I am always glad to hear that it was. People say that it is one of the most powerful professional development experiences that they ever have because it forces you to be reflective. We really thought about that. If you want to have a conversation about that, the names are there and they had different opinions about things. I was the only art person on a board of 63 people, but if there had been one more of me - as a fellow board member once said as a compliment - we would have been over-represented, because I looked at everything we discussed through the lens of its impact on the arts, studied to be prepared, and spoke out - habits that have helped me out through the years.
 
AB: What I’m doing now is looking for renewal. It feels very different, and I could not tell you if that is where I am positioned in my career and the work that I have done to look into education and my own practices, or if it really is a kind of shifting. I think maybe it is a combination.
 
BL:  The opportunity to contribute, to give back to the association in which I received so many opportunities, it feels good to stretch and grow. Sustaining your passion is one of the ways to stretch and grow. Another is to give back to other people, which is what my mother used to say. She called it “passing it forward”. That has now become a well-known phrase in our culture. But my mother always said that when I was growing up: “You can’t ever pay somebody back, so you must just pass it forward.” So, that’s what we do, when in fact we are going to talk about people who have supported the efforts of my own.
 
Years ago, Tom Hatfield (former Executive Director of the NAEA) took me on just as I became VAEA President in the mid-1980’s. He had a kind of philosophy of adopting or mentoring, and he expected the people that he mentored to mentor others. It was a self-sustaining type of thing. I have taken that charge pretty seriously, and have “dragged” a number of people kicking and screaming - or at least strongly urged and helped support them - into leadership positions. I think when you watch people grow and they become what they can be, that also sustains you.
 
AB: That’s lovely, absolutely. I really like to hear the stories about “kicking and screaming,” but those are yours to treasure.
 
Would you like to share more about what you’ve learned about yourself and how you’ve grown? What are some of the things that you have developed that perhaps you did not have when you began your career? What qualities do you admire in your colleagues?
 
BL: I think I have developed a lot more tolerance and acceptance and patience. I typically want things done yesterday. The slowness of change has driven me crazy upon occasion, but I have learned that there are times that standing back and letting things happen and addressing, adapting, and/or tweaking them as they are going along - sometime incrementally - rather than trying to force something that’s not going to work is often the best way to do it. I don’t think that I would have done that when I first started. In fact, I know that I didn’t do that when I first started.
 
I think we would have talked about the fact that I am a learner, and actually I have always been that. I’ve always been a reader and I’ve always been a thinker. I’m an INFP (Introvert/Intuitive/Feeling/Perceiving, on the Myers-Briggs Personality Test), so that is what we do. I admire folks who easily and quickly are “persuaders”. I am pretty much shy and fairly introverted. It’s not that now do I have trouble speaking in front of people - especially when there’s much at stake - but in the beginning it was scary. It’s not as if I cannot do the other stuff. But I am not a “cold-call” type of person, if that makes sense. I admire people who can actually do it with great facility, who are able to woo and charm and be wonderful. For me, it is an effort, not that I think I have to woo. But I admire that ease.
 
There are many people who know art education research more deeply than I do but I like to think I provide balance with research-based practical application and I have great admiration for researchers who keep us honest in terms of what is good for kids.
 
 I am old enough that I’m not going to change these habits that are part of my personality. I am actually pretty happy with where I am and who I am. I have had the privilege of being offered a lot of opportunities and done a whole lot of things. I guess that I would not change anything but that does not mean that I do not admire what other people do too.
 
AB: I understood one thing that was part of your way of growing, when you were saying that you did not mind selling art education because you didn’t feel that you’re asking anyone to pay for anything. Does that end up being your largest exception to your perceived inability to “woo”?
 
BL: To a great degree! I think that is very perceptive of you. The difference is that when you go to sell somebody something, it is not because of your passion. It is basically a monetary transaction. In fact, it may be even something you don’t want because you’re selling it.
 
AB: Who are your personal members of “This is Your Life”?  Whose voices would you want to hear?
 
BL: Well, it’s interesting. I did write some names down. Because I have had a long career, I have had lots of people who have helped me along the way, who have been mentors, colleagues, friends, or critical friends, and so forth.
 
I mentioned Tom Hatfield. I would not have done many things without his help. After I received the award for Elementary Art Teacher, he nominated me for the National Board for Professional Teaching Standards. He also put together the Leader Academy for which I co-developed curriculum and acted as faculty. My mind thinks policy anyway. I have done that for a long time, since I served in university student government, my whole life. He knew that and kind of tapped into it.
 
Sam Banks (former Art Supervisor of the Richmond City Public Schools) - with one person between us, I followed him as VAEA President and as NAEA Southeastern Region Vice President and he was always there as a friend and mentor.
            
I was present when Chuck Qualley (former President of the NAEA) and Tom Hatfield outlined the focus of Chuck’s presidency on a cocktail napkin at an airport after leaving the VAEA conference, giving me a close view of the internal workings of the NAEA. Chuck was a critical friend throughout many of my NAEA leadership roles.
 
I was getting my supervision/administration credentials at the Hampton Roads George Washington University program and I had not met any prerequisites at the Master’s level - who does with a Medieval culture humanities major? So I had to take a lot of extra classes, almost had an Ed. S., and so I went ahead and finished that. During my last course, the professor, Dennis Holmes, GWU faculty who was usually in DC and who turned out to be my major professor and a significant support, offered to clear away hoops, including some of the main campus residency requirements, so I could complete my doctorate. An offer I couldn’t refuse and an opportunity would never happen again.
 
Faye Uber, who is not in art education, was a “downtown” visitor at the camp when I was there my first year of teaching. She was a Title I math resource person for the district. She was a person who ultimately had more of an impact on me in terms of my career in the public schools than anyone else around. She was a friendly face during all of the craziness of teaching art under physical education. At the end of my time teaching, she was the principal of my school when I was finishing up my doctorate. She threw me out of the nest when she said, “You need to go and do something else. You’re done, and you’ve done your time as an art teacher.” And then when I became an Instructional Specialist, she was on the panel when I interviewed for the Art Coordinator job. She has been sort of a thread all the way through, and she is still a friend.
 
Other people who have impacted me are my students and my teachers. I had 64 teachers I worked with. I learned more from them than one can imagine. Back to the importance of conversations. We all bring different experiences and expertise to the table and through discussion and trading ideas, we individually we learn and collectively we would hope that we make better decisions.
 
I think those are the names but I’ve had such opportunities along the way, I have learned from all of those people and all of those experiences. I have learned from organizations, and I still do! I am learning from the aspiring and inspiring teachers I have in the classroom right now. It is what we do. And so, I have been significantly supported where it made a difference in my career through the opportunities I have had. That is one type of thing. Students have always had an impact on me, from the littlest one on. If you listen to them, then they change you. I really do believe in community. I do believe that the job that art educators do is too hard not to have a community. Over the years I have been very fortunate.
 
AB: It seems as if you had the ideal community many times. When you needed to go and do something else, as your principal urged you.
 
BL: She said that! I said to her, “You know, I really am going to miss you,” and she said, “You’re outta here; you can’t come back.” As I said, I’ve been very fortunate.
 
AB: It is wonderful that you can say how much you’ve felt supported throughout your career. That is really fantastic! Do you think in any way, shape, or form, that is the type of person that you are, the person you have been raised to be?
 
BL: My parents encouraged independence. I had a lot of opportunities along the way to do some things that changed my life - for example, the summer between my high school junior and senior years I spent in Panama as a diocesan exchange student. Other things perhaps - I was my father’s intellectual sparring partner - usually at dinner. Neither of them restricted my choice of reading in any way. Academics were valued but so were my artistic activities. Going to college was assumed.
 
The biggest thing I think was that both my parents, who were white southerners born in 1922, before I came along, discussed the religious and racial biases they had been exposed to as they were growing up and made a conscious decision not to pass that along - and not to allow older relatives to either. The line from a South Pacific song, “…You’ve got to be carefully taught to hate and fear...” was something my mother quoted, and I believe took to heart as a lesson for how not to raise her children. It was a great gift to my sister and me.

 My husband has always been really supportive and mostly patient and urges me “go, do, and grow”. You know, he and my sister, and my in-laws have all been really great.
 
AB: It seems when we run across people in these realms with leadership and education, educational leadership being exactly where these two paths meet, if ever there is anything to take us all off of the common mission of where we want to go and where we all want to succeed and have an impact, something that is at least going to gain some traction, the only thing that I find sometimes gets in the way is a lack of support among colleagues. It seems as if that is almost something some of us bounce back from easier than others, or maybe not bounce back. But what you describe sounds so very positive.
 
BL: It’s not like I didn’t have negative stuff going on too. You didn’t ask about that, like when I would be stomping my feet behind my desk in the Art Coordinator’s office. You do that. I also had a lot of sleepless nights, really worrying. And nothing would make me more frustrated than people treating my teachers badly. I really fretted over that. I do have my negative moments. And I can certainly be a “grumpy bear”. The coordinator position was staff not line so I was in an entirely support role. When issues occurred, I needed to work district or school administrators to solve it - so we’re back to having to have good relationships.
 
As an administrator, you also have to be aware of, as much as possible, not creating a negative environment. I think some people take it personally when teachers leave their employment to go somewhere else or do something different but I didn’t take it personally. It’s not going to make a difference - and as I’ve said, I’m not in the business of clipping wings. Go be all you can be… If I am negative toward my teachers, it can certainly make a difference in them, so, ultimately I think you are right. I know folks who wear a kind of “raincoat.” I have told my teachers to follow that advice as well. You can’t take it personally; you have to let things just roll off, because if you take them personally, you cannot deal with them. You have to step back emotionally to deal with them. It’s rarely about you. The person is generally telling you something about themselves, not you and if you consider that it’s easier to respond. So that is kind of where I am.
 
AB: You have been kind enough to walk me through the steppingstones of your career. You have talked about the framework and the personality style that you operate from, which gives me a tremendous insight.
 
BL: I’m doing media exploration with my elementary art methods class at Old Dominion University. I hadn’t done that before. I have been an administrator for 15 years. I have been working all summer on my syllabus.  I have both prospective classroom teachers and elementary art teachers in my class. It’s a challenge to jump on the horse and, as my mother used to say, “dash off madly in all directions”. It brought to mind the range of art instruction that people have, wherever they left off. For example, I think a lot of these people have never drawn observationally before. (You know, we start that with kindergarteners in Virginia.) My university students do it mostly willingly, but a couple of them were very stressed to begin with, and we talked about it.  It was good to be reminded of that, of what people go through. Adult learners are even tougher to teach than the kindergarteners. The whole college experience now is totally different with the 8-page syllabus and the expectation of the need to know those clearly laid-out expectations. My new learning experience…
 
AB: It’s been heaping spoonfuls of food for thought and I know more gems will pop up as I transcribe this, so I can’t thank you enough for this insight into our field.